EVERY TIME TWO WORLD'S COLLIDE - WHY BYB MISSED THE MARK

EVERY TIME TWO WORLD'S COLLIDE - WHY BYB MISSED THE MARK 

The world of purebred dogs is definitely divided -  The good the bad the Ugly - 
I would like to start by taking a look at the beginnings of Purebred dogs and then the show world.  Why is it so divided  as far as show breeders and BYB go???  


It is divided because the nature of the sport goes against the very heart of the purpose - dedicated people working to produce the best example possible.

First if we look at the reason that brought about the purebred dog world we would have to go way back in time.  People had tasks that they needed  fulfilled so they looked at Man's best friend to help.  They noticed that certain dogs were really strong in certain task so they started breeding these dogs to each other with the specific purpose in mind to make sure more of the dogs would work or meet the requirements for which they were bred.  They wanted them to breed true to that task and a certain look, otherwise they wanted them to breed true to both form and function.

As men will be men they of course wanted to start pitting their best effort against someone else's best effort and the dog show world had its humble beginnings.  I am sure that even way back then that there were poeple who thought they were crazy.  This pursuite of excellence and competing to see whose dog could top whose dog.  But folks that is how it started - around a pub and a few good  men bragging about the days activities of field trailing.  From that Westminister was born and the rest is history.  

Dog showing as a sport is second only in organized sports to  -------- you guessed it Horse Racing.

So from the beginning I think the differences were there -  There were the BYB who had a dog and of course no one neutered their dog back then so they let nature take care of it self and didn't really give it a second thought.

But for the purebred dog world it was a big difference - there was a purpose - a passion.  Since dogs pretty much roamed loose in the old days they would mate with whoever was available but the purebred dogs were put up and carefully screened and mated with a specific purpose.  Breeders kept meticulious records  of matings and the results.  Hence the American Kennel Club was formed to help promote this sport and make these records more available to the public.  These purposes became the guideline or standard for each breed.   You can't have one without the other.  Purebred dogs must adhere to the standard.  


Most backyard breeders BYB are not even aware of a standard or the purpose of breeding.  Doming next 
Dog show Fancy - Sport or Cult???


Dobs4ever -Dogs Under Fire

Web sites and RED FLAGS

It appears that there needs to be some help with reading web pages and what they actually mean.  They all use certain "sales terms".  So how do you analyze a web site and how do you recognize RED FLAGS?


Is it just a case of having just enough knowledge to be dangerous???  In other words BYB have been around enough and in a lot of cases just copy and paste or steal phrases from good web sites -  I think the biggest is
BRED FOR temperament, confirmation (intential misspelling), working, health and longevity) 

People must use a little common sense and learn to break it down by asking the right questions -  Temperament - if you have never worked or trained a dog yourself in PP - how do you know what good temperament is???  Because a dog runs the fence line and barks like it would eat you alive does not mean it has correct temperament especailly if that same dog if you actually entered the yard in a threatening way RAN. 

Conformation -  This one really gets me when they can't spell it to begin with yet they will sell you a show puppy -  Folks it is dead serious to me when I say show puppy to someone looking for a show prospect in a young puppy.  If there is any question I prefer to just place the dog as a pet.  But someone who has never shown would not recognize a good show prospect if they tried.  Shouldn't you at least ask if they have ever produced a chamipion out of their breeding???

Working drives -  To recognise true working drive that holds up under pressure -  Should the person at least have titled in some obedience venue to have an idea of what it takes to get a dog to competion level???? in anything??

Health and longevity -  Of course every breeder hopes for this BUT can they produce a 5 generation pedigree and tell you about the dogs in the pedigree - strengths, weaknesses, health issues etc.  Vet checked is not health tested - they are two totally different things.   A dog in early stages of liver failure can still look good on the outside while things are going on and changing on the inside.  A full blood panel can help eliminate at least most of the serious issues and show that at that time the dog did not show any signs of problem -  EX:  kidney, liver etc.

PENDING is another RED FLAG also - I have seen people put pending when in 2 to 3 weeks if they had actually done the test or trial they would have the results. Why not just wait and publish the results???I have seen things that were pending for years.  It should be a RED FLAG and I would ask them to call me back when the results are in.

PayPal - Puppies are a living breathing thing not just a commodity like WalMart - to me it speaks more to the commercial breeder. This speaks volume breeder as Paypal charges a fee just like a credit card company.

Pricing - should be based on the quality, health testing, showing and knowledge of the breeder along with the kind of support they provide throughout the life of the puppy.  I have been contacted many times by people who bought a puppy with the promise of "lifetime support" UNTIL there was a problem and then the breeder STOPPED responding.
               a.   AKC registration should be a must
               b.  Titles and awards on their own dogs - not dogs back in the pedigree
              c.   Member of at least one of the breed clubs - DPCA (Doberman Pinscher Club of America or UDC  United Doberman Club -  it shows that they agree to follow a COE and that they are at least aware that there is a correct standard for the Doberman Pinscher.- It also shows they are active in more than just breeding.
              d.  Health tested no just vet checked as well as knowledge of the past pedigree and any health issues.  There is NO test that says cardio clear -  Very misleading and untrue statement.
              e.  Charging extra for ear cropping - Since it is a cropped and docked breed I would not want a breeder who tried to cut corners.
              f.   Price should be based on whether you are getting pet puppy or show puppy NOT color and not registration.   ALL puppies should be AKC registered.  To do less says you do not care about trying to preserve quality.

Contract -  I would not go into any business deal without requiring a contract.  This spells out exactly what is expected of both parties.

Z factored - AKC reg does give you a way to know if you are buying Z factored or not so ask for Registration numbers of the sire and dam.  Last year there was a web site where the first page was right out  of the DPCA web site - all about the importance of breeding quality and that dogs being bred should be shown and titled -  All written to impress the novice -  then as you moved on through the site and looked at pictures the dogs were roached (humped back) and z factored - that means they are out of albino stock which is banned by their own  breed club because albinoism is a serious genetic defect that can cause a whole set of problems specifically related to the albino mutation.

Unfortunatley JQP is very gullible - If it is printed on a web site it must be true -  PLEASE ask questions  about each of the above.  The breeder should be comfortable and open to answering any and all questions.  If they get angry I would sya they are trying to hide something.  RUN.

Dobs4ever -

Inbreeding Linebreeding part 3 cont

In continuing this subject from a breeders perspective I have to say we have a different view of things than science or certainly someone who is not a breeder.  First we have to understand a little about how a breed is created and that by its very nature it is ALL inbreeding and line breeding in the end just because the gene pool is closed.

Back when Herr Dobermann started on his search to create his vision of the Dobermann with very specific traits to provide him the protection he was seeking he had to survey and have some understanding of each dog introduced into the gene pool.  With each breed he had specific traits, looks, temperament etc that he wanted to combine and bring into one gene pool.  He was not interested increating a "designer" dog that could not reproduce or carry on.

The dogs he selected all had certain things that were good and all had some health issues that they brought to the mix. It is important to remember that back then "the health nut craze" had not infiltrated the world.  People accepted as a fact of life - both life and death so I am fairly certain he was not concerned with how long each breed used lived to -  He was focused and dedicated to his single mindness in his creation.

Once he achieved the results he wanted - temperament, drive, coat, head, size, he then had to breed them back to each other til they reached a point that they bred "TRUE" to his vision - in other words every dog came out looking like his Dobermann and none ever looked like a throw back to the shepherd, rotties etc.  When this happens there are certain things that become SET in the gene pool and are going to be there for life.  No matter how much you try to breed away from it there are just too many combinations of genes that can show up at anytime.

I personally believe that the cardio issue was introduced when Groelier introduced the Great Dane into the gene pool.  We know Great Danes suffer from cardio.  Does it matter - not at this point because we can't go back and take it out of the gene pool.

Breeders HAVE to believe tha they can work to make things better - if we did not believe this we would throw in the towel.  Does not mean we can solve it all but means we can maintain for the most part a healthy gene pool to draw from.  There are things that affect it -  inBreeding, line breeding, and the popular sire syndrome which can and does create a bottle neck thereby diminishing the majority of the gene pool.  BUT in a small closed gene pool there are some things that can't be avoided and all the science in the world will not change the overall picture even thoug we would like to think so.

Look at humans for example - we do not necessarily follow any form of inbreeding as it has been banned and for the most part we don't line breed BUT we do have health issues that are common to man.  If you listen only to science then we all must stop bnreeding and this will cure the health issues because the species will disappear.
Dobs4ever

Inbreeding Linebreeding part 3 cont

In continuing this subject from a breeders perspective I have to say we have a different view of things than science or certainly someone who is not a breeder.  First we have to understand a little about how a breed is created and that by its very nature it is ALL inbreeding and line breeding in the end jsut because the gene pool is closed.

Back when Herr Dobermann started on his search to create his vision of the Dobermann with very specific traits to provide him the protection he was seeking he had to survey and have some understanding of each dog introduced into the gene pool.  With each breed he had specific traits, looks, temperament etc that he wanted to combine and bring into one gene pool.  He was not interested increating a "designer" dog that could not reproduce or carry on.

The dogs he selected all had certain things that were good and all had some health issues that they brought to the mix. It is important to remember that back then "the health nut craze" had not infiltrated the world.  People accepted as a fact of life - both life and death so I am fairly certain he was not concerned with how long each breed used lived to -  He was focused and dedicated to his single mindness in his creation.

Once he achieved the results he wanted - temperament, drive, coat, head, size, he then had to breed them back to each other til they reached a point that they bred "TRUE" to his vision - in other words every dog came out looking like his Dobermann and none ever looked like a throw back to the shepherd, rotties etc.  When this happens there are certain things that become SET in the gene pool and are going to be there for life.  No matter how much you try to breed away from it there are just too many combinations of genes that can show up at anytime.

I personally believe that the cardio issue was introduced when Groelier introduced the Great Dane into the gene pool.  We know Great Danes suffer from cardio.  Does it matter - not at this point because we can't go back and take it out of the gene pool.

Breeders HAVE to believe tha they can work to make things better - if we did not believe this we would throw in the towel.  Does not mean we can solve it all but means we can maintain for the most part a healthy gene pool to draw from.  There are things that affect it -  inBreeding, line breeding, and the popular sire syndrome which can and does create a bottle neck thereby diminishing the majority of the gene pool.  BUT in a small closed gene pool there are some things that can't be avoided and all the science in the world will not change the overall picture even thoug we would like to think so.

Look at humans for example - we do not necessarily follow any form of inbreeding as it has been banned and for the most part we don't line breed BUT we do have health issues that are common to man.  If you listen only to science then we all must stop bnreeding and this will cure the health issues because the species will disappear.
Dobs4ever

Inbreeding Linebreeding con't

1. This is a quote from Frank Grover on the ADPEF.org web site on breeding. I thought it could open up some interesting discussion for those who wish to participate. Science has never created anything unless it was in a test tube. I don't want to live in a test tube.
   http://americandobermanpinschereducationalfoundation.org/breed_today/franks_breeding_and_rescue 

   I think it is important to understand first that inbreeding and line breeding are two totally different strategies and can't be lumped into the same sentence.Inbreeding is the mating of two very close relatives - ex. Father to daughter, mother to son, half brother to half sister. This is used when a new breed is being formed inorder to intensify the specific traits one is wanting to "set" in the lines. With that also comes some hidden faults that can be intensified. Once a line is set pretty much what is the the genetic mix is there to stay. That is why in the beginning you hope that there is a wide variety of dogs used to bring about the product you are looking for and that it reduced the negative as much as possible.

   1. 
      LineBreeding is a tried and proven strategy breeders have used with success for many years. It is the mating of more distant relatives ex: Grandsire to granddaughter, Uncle to niece and its goal is to produce more consistent litters. Back in those days dogs were very prepotent meaning the genes were so strong you could predict what they would be like as adults - Each line back then had very distinct charastertics and breeders bred to what they liked. Often you will hear a judge say a dogs is "very typy" and this is mostly due to line breeding.
      
      If you look at the history of the Doberman's that were imported to America, breeders took these dogs and developed several specific "types" from the mix depending one which dogs they crossed. Back in the early 50's, 60's and even into the 70's we saw dogs that were very distinct in type and by looking at the dogs you could tell which kennel they came from because of the line breeding. This is what we call prepotent.
      
      Linebreeding certainly has its place in the purebred dog world and breeders should know the lines and breed accordingly to produce the best dog possilbe while sidestepping the landmines. We must understand that by the very nature of the purebred dogs there is a certain genetic load that can't be avoided because in the end they all came from the same beginnings.
      
      Each breeder has to determine for themselves how much they want to linebreed and how tightly. In all things consdered every breeder I have every talked with agrees you have to go outside to bring in new blood to keep the line strong and healthy without loosing what you have worked so hard to maintain. This is not new to breeders who have been breeding for a while and understand the whole picture.
      
      The problem is today we have way too many johnny come latelys who have no real knowledge of what breeding is really all about or how it plays out and that to me would include the author of the above article. Scientist are not breeders and neither sicene or genetics in breeding always work out in a nice neat little package that would allow us to label linebreeding as a bad thing especailly if they lump linebreeding and inbreeding in the same catagory.  

      Dobs4ever  

   
   
   

On the subject of inbreeding and linebreeding

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      "Inbreeding/Linebreeding was once a valuable tool in shaping today’s breeds. As these have now reached a high degree of homogeneity, it has lost its importance and turned into a fatal and disastrous habit."

      Hellmuth Wachtel, PhD   Quotes below are excerpts from this article

   
   

   I will share a quote from the Great Tess Hensler - (quote)Remember; it is better to marry the worst member of a good family than the best member of a bad family.(quote) Pedigree is important in the animal kingdom..  ADPEF.org
   

   
   

   "Their breeding theories were a reflection of social attitudes of the times. It should also be kept in mind that these individuals were mostly wealthy men whose human pedigrees were considered better than those of "common" people. As pedigrees became more important, so did the regular appearance of significant names in those pedigrees. Eventually registries were established to keep official records. At some point, virtually all dog registries became closed. Most of this occurred before breeders had even a rudimentary knowledge of genetic science."

   I am not sure Herr Dobermann was rich - beings he had 3 or 4 jobs - Tax collector, dog pound and landlord at least part of his job was collecting rents for someone - that tends to make me think he was a workng man. The rich tend to sit in their castles and look down on everyone else and usually had someone who worked for them who actually did the work and study.
   
   How would anyone have a rudimentary knowledge of genetic science when it has not been discovered yet??? What they had was specific traits and looks that they were seeking and without all this knowledge they quickly accomplished it. While they may not have known the far reaching results they accomplished quickly the traits they desired. This in and of itself was brilliant. They learned it by careful study of the resulting progeny and IMHO they were amazingt in what they accomplished without all this science. In fact they GAVE science the road to follow with the proof of results the careful following of lines - In other words they pointed the path for science to follow. We must work hand in hand and breeders are making adjustments as then learn more and they are taking the necessary steps to proceed with caution so as not to destroy all that they have built up to this point.
   
   As I see it science job is to help find the answers that arise as we progress down the road. Or give us a better way through DNA to safely eliminate the undesirables while maintaining the original purpose or dog breed. Breeders job is to keep a gene pool to draw from while protecting the standard.
   
   Pedigrees were and are important because the people developing them had specific traits that they were looking for and because science or genetics was not developed to the point it is today they had to study and follow the results of what they were producing. I agree that there are too many today breeding with out the understanding of this knowledge base to follow. They get two dogs and they are going to breed them with little thought or understanding of where they want to go beyond just breeding.
   
   I agree science is new, but that does not equate to better necessarily. Science has been wrong a time or two and that is the problem with the johnny come latelies in the dog world. They seems to think they know better and that they don't need to study the history with understanding to know where we came from and where they should then try to go with these new found revelations. For sound breeding tactics we have to find the correct way to apply science along with the solid breeding practices of old. Genetics is all too new to throw out everthing.
   
   For the most part inbreeding has faded into the background as the breed became more fluent, but I will say this - you can't compare what happens in nature to what happens in the world of purebred dogs because purebred dogs is a manipulation of man so by the very nature to start a new species you must inbreed in the beginning and bring in enough outside dogs in the original creation to hopefully develop a strong gene pool as you narrow the gap. Once you have dogs breeding true with the results you were looking for you close the gene pool.
   

   
   

   "Each individual within a breed also carries it’s own kind of load — four or five genes for potentially fatal diseases or defects. These are called "lethal equivalents." In most cases they will not affect the individual carrying them because a single allele, or form of the gene, will be insufficient to cause the problem. But when relatives are mated, the odds of matching up those alleles increases and as does the frequency the disease.
   Every population must deal with genetic load and lethal equivalents, but when the population is prevented having genetic exchange with other similar populations, genetic diversity within the population begins to diminish. Some of this may be beyond anyone’s control."

   To reiterate - "some of this may be beyond anyone's control - especailly if we want to maintain purebred dogs.

   
   Dobs4ever -Copyright © 2010 Suzan Shipp/Dobs4ever. All rights reserved. Revised: ALL PICTURES AND CONTENT ON THIS BLOG ARE THE SOLE PROPERTY OF Suzan Shipp/J Bar S Dobermans and may not be used, copied or reprinted without express permission from the owner. Copyrighted 2010

WHY SHOULD I TRAIN MY DOG FOR IPO?

Maybe you shouldn't -  It is a huge committment, but for the working dog breeds who can often get themselves into trouble because an owner does not train and work with them to keep them mentally stimulated it can become a problem.  Training a good dog makes, IPO training a GREAT dog makes.

The individual who wants a working breed is not or should not be your typical "pet" owner.  Working breeds require MORE - more exercise, more mental stimulation, more training, more socialization.   If a person is not willing to give the dog this time and effort then maybe a lap dog would be a better choice.

Dogs are very much like children - they don't train themselves to grow up to be good citizens, know the rules and follow the rules.  That is our job.  IPO which stands for International Police Organization was founded primarily to train and test dogs that would be suitable for police work.  In the old days it was referred to as Schutzhund (protection dog) but as all things we certainly want to appear to be politically correct so IPO it is.

With all good things there comes some rules and some responsibility and protection trained dogs are no different.

Schutzhund or IPO is all about obedience after all it would really be dangerous if the dog just did what it wanted when it wanted.  Training is the basis for all good dogs.  But when you train in IPO sports you will learn so much about your dog and yourself.  It is about building a bond and working side by side with your partner who is trained to respond to certain commands and to work closely and obediently with his handler.

Far more than what the dog will learn though, is about what you will learn about these magnificant dogs.  Their courage, their spirit, their trust and loyalty are all above reproach.  It maybe considered just sport to some but it is a sport that teaches self discipline, teamwork, sportsmanship.  and undying love and devotion.  All valuable lessons for us to learn today especially when so many sports are full of dope addicts, perverts felons, dog abusers and low lifes elevatred to a superior status of incompetency and common decency sounds a lot like politicians to me.

Dog sports can be a whole family activity.  Teaching children good dog handling skills, how to build an unbreakable bond and how to feel safer in an unsafe world.  They are smart, alert, protective, powerful and they are loyal.  A trained dog is a confident dog.  Training IPO also helps the dog develop good judgement and gives them a better reading on situations.

If you have the time and committment I would recommend it for anyone wanting a working breed.